Sunday, November 12, 2006
Green v. AG - Round I: How it all began
His reply to me was very casual as most conversations usually are at the beginning.
From: American Guy
To: Green
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002
Subject: Re: Fw: Cool Master Card
Hi Green
Since I haven't been much of a correspondent, I thought I'd take a few minutes and just give you a little update on our lives.
We're all still alive.
OK, now that you had the update, things are going well here. I'm enjoying my time here in OZ, hard to believe its been 3 1/2 years, but hey, if you're happy ...
M and the kids are doing great. J is in Kindegarten and liking (for the most part - there are some days he doesn't want to leave the fun home). T is being a typical two year old - talking up a storm and throwing tantrums. She's just so cute, except when she makes you want to scream.
I'm enjoying my work, working with long term unemployed people. It's challenging, but rewarding. Plus I have a great staff working with me.
So that's the 3 minute version of our life. Suffice it to say we're pretty content.
Just one little thing. I know you're just being friendly passing along these inspirational messages and all, but as a favour (note the wacky Australian spelling I've had to get used to), could I ask you not to send any more of these to me? To be honest, I've moved away from religion, and don't find these messages inspirational, as much as cloying. I've taken the view that while people are entitled to their faith, I am entitled to my lack of it and prefer not to have (well intentioned) Christian messages thrust at me. Thanks for your understanding.
So that's about it from here. Let us know what's up in your life. Give my best to K and the kids.
AG
To which I replied:
From: Green
To: American Guy
Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002
Subject: Howdy!
Hello AG!
Staying alive is good!
I'm glad to hear that you and the family are doing well. Give my regards to M and hug your kids for me. I LOVE getting hugs from my kids. I'm sure you do too.
V will turn 5 next month and is finishing up pre-school in June. She will go to Kindegarten in September. M turned 2 last October and is a typical cute kid, talking more and more each day and becoming more understandable.
K started her new job today. She is still working at Southern NH Medical Center, but now she is working on the Labor and Delivery floor instead of Medical/Surgical. She used to take care of patients coming out of surgery. She had a good first day and will be back at it tomorrow. She is orienting for the new job on the day shift (she has worked 3rd shift all of her career) and is going to work three 12 hour shifts per week.
I am unemployed again. Have been since Feb. 1, 2002. I'm trying to find a new career other than collections. Not an easy thing to do when you work in a field for 9+ years. I spend a lot of time with the kids, which is great.
I will not send you any more religious based emails. I apologize if I've offended you in any way. However, I am curious, now, in what has caused you to become less religious than you were previously. Was your background growing up Catholic, Protestant, or other? I don't believe we've ever seriously (or not so seriously) talked about this subject, so I really don't know your views at all. However, as you say, the emails were sent with good intention, not to be cloying...
G
and AG replied:
From: American Guy
To: Green
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002
Subject: Re: Howdy!
Hey Green, good to hear from you. Sorry to hear that you're out of work, but as you say, it's great to be able to spend time with the kids. I was fortunate enough to spend about 4 months being a stay at home dad with J shortly before we left the US. Of course, being that that was by choice made a difference. But hey, if you can make the best out of a bad situation... So do you have any ideas on what kind of work you want to shift into?
Good luck to K with the change to day shifts! It may be a bit of a shock after working nights so long. I remember when my dad went from working nights for many years to working while the sun was up. It took a bit of time.
As to the religion thing - first off, don't worry, you didn't offend me. Its just that I find it difficult to live in a society where my views are not widely accepted. I don't need people to agree with my views, I just need them to accept them. I also can't escape from it. Think about how many actors thanked God during the Oscars, or how many subtle references to religion pervade our daily lives (open your wallet and look at how many times you see "In God We Trust", think about people shouting "Jesus" when they hurt themselves) and this isn't even considering the people who see it as part of their mission to spread their belief.
There's also the fact that as an atheist (not a term I usually use to define myself, but the closest that there is.), I am seen as less human by many, or somehow defective, and certainly, not to put too fine a point on it, damned. I get really annoyed at having to tell people I don't believe in heaven and hell, god and the devil, the soul, etc. If I can accept that others believe that after they die they'll meet their maker, why can't they accept that I believe that when you die, you're dead, end of story? They can think I'm wrong, I have no problem with that (just like I think they're wrong).
It's hard to have a minority view. It's really hard when you are in such a small minority. And it's extremely hard when people still feel justified to discriminate against you because of that view. I've applied for jobs where I was told my lack of faith made me inappropriate for the position (which would have made sense if I was applying to be a priest, but that wasn't the case). I've always fancied that I would like to get involved in politics, but could you imagine the outcry? Look at how many politicians beat their chest and talk about how good and moral they are because they go to church once a week, or because they read the Bible. And here's the crux of the matter - you can be moral without being religious, and you can be religious without being moral (look at the Catholic church in Boston these days, but that's another story!), but many people can't see that. I can believe that it's wrong to steal without believing I will go to Hell for it. I can believe that it's right to comfort the sick, help the needy and feed the hungry, simply because it benefits us as a society, not because it will be seen as favourable by a god, or that I'll get my ultimate reward for doing so.
I also have a lot of issues with people using their faith to justify all sorts of inhuman acts. I see no moral difference between an Islamic martyr who blows up a coffee shop and a Christian fundamentalist who shoots up an abortion clinic. Both are examples of a tiny minority twisting their faith's message beyond recognition, but both are examples of people who feel that they are doing God's will.
There hasn't been any one thing that led me to these views (though I've found it very disquieting that we have people with extreme religious views (like John Ashcroft) making decisions that affect all of us). I was raised Catholic but I've always been suspicious of people who told me to just accept something on belief without understanding it (which is probably why I studied science), and over the years I have seen more and more to support my current position. Am I absolutely sure there is no God? No. But if there is a god, is it the Christian God? is it Allah? Is it Zeus? What makes the most sense to me is that in each of these cases, people needed a belief system to explain the world around them. Those lights in the sky must be gods. Unless they're just planets. People were created by an all powerful being in his own image. Unless they evolved from other species the same as all the other animals.
In my experience, anything that can be explained by religion can be explained as well or better by science. There's an interesting scientific principle called Oxam's Razor. Basically, it says that all things being equal, the simplest solution is usually the correct one. So, as I reckon it's a lot simpler to believe that our bodies simply break down into their component chemicals when we die, rather than believing that as our bodies decay, our soul is taken to a new place, not physical in nature, and beyond human understanding, where it exists forever (not just a long time, but forever) either in paradise or in damnation depending on how we lived our lives.
I don't know, I've probably bored you enough with all this, but I hope I've given you a bit of a flavour of my views. Above all else, I'm not indicting all Christians or anything like that. My parents are still religious (and my Dad significantly more so than when I was younger), and while we disagree on our worldview, we respect each other's opinions. More of a quandary is how M and I will raise our kids. She fancies raising the kids Catholic, and I prefer the idea of raising them without what I see as a hindrance to their development (I still have a lot of resentment at what I saw as indoctrination when I was younger). I think if people want to come to religion, they should do so by choice, not have it thrust upon them. And who knows, if I hadn't been forced into Catholicism, I might have a very different opinion of it than I now do. Most likely we'll try and find some middle path, letting them know that different people have different beliefs, and that they'll need to decide for themselves.
OK, this is stating to turn into a rant, so I'll leave it at that for now.
In any case, this is probably more info than you were looking for, but you know I've never been able to keep my mouth shut.
AG
If the CHURCH has offended you, reject the CHURCH.
Having a relationship with God is totally different than being a member of an organized religion.
Each individual is responsible for his own words and actions.
It's a matter of our God given free will...The people's own choices.
Why then, is God being blamed for the sins of the PEOPLE?
Assign the blame to the rightful owner.
And yes i did reject the church. And since it was the church who created the god, i reject the god
What you should blame, if anything, is the corrupt human leadership of, in your case, the HRC, and the teachings of your particular parish in particular.
I'm not saying that Protestant churches are all free of corruption in human leadership, because some certainly have it. But there are good solid churches out there. You just have to look for them and test what they teach versus what the New Testament teaches to see if they're on the level. That's the plumb line, the New Testament.
And sadly, many former Catholics (not just you, AG) I know have fallen away from or become disillusioned by the church. Some have rejected God, as you have, and others retain their faith but just don't follow the HRC script.
Our own Dabich is a great example.
can you phrase anything objectively? saying former Catholics have "rejected god" implies not only god's existence but a god that desires human observance.
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